My div test page was only 2285 bytes smaller then my table page which would save me 1.74 MB/month of data transfer. A paragraph? By a few I mean less than 5. Like others have pointed out, fixing display bugs related to just about any css based layout often takes entire release cycles, just to get ruined even more by some other dopy designer. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. With equal column heights, yes its easier to create them with tables than with divs alone, though if you look at the last of the 4 methods I described youll see its not hard to create them with divs and css and it still uses less code than using tables. My point about flexibility isnt simply flipping columns. I think grids are great, but I dont think you should create them using html tables for the reasons I mentioned in this post. Menu. If you send me a link Ill be happy to take a look. Much of using css for layout is realizing that you dont need to do as much as you think. On the other hand, judicious use of semantically meaningful HTML combined with CSS might confine such changes to the CSS and the pictures used. John all 3 of the sites you list can definitely be developed using css for the layout instead of tables. Its the kind of thing that might move you from #8 to #7, but not from page 5 to the first page. Using CSS, you will control the color of the text, the design of fonts, the spacing between paragraphs, how columns are sized and laid out, etc. Good Article and a lot of gold in these comments. I wrote it to answer the question. It certainly lags behind other browsers, but for the most part IE fro version 7 on is css2 compliant. If the human eye cant tell any difference, then whats the point? A horizontal list can go either way depending on what the client wants. There are many databases with different data formats to choose for an application. As far as I know Ive never provided 100% of the code to any of the sites youve developed, which would mean the issue isnt necessarily my code. You can with a div. It helps to form spontaneous and consistent changes. Research another option instead of a table for displaying the Let us have a glance on the benefits and drawbacks of CSS. Thats it. To me it seems so obvious that using divs over tables is the better approach that I have a hard time understanding how someone would argue otherwise. As you can see I still strongly favor css layouts, but I think many of the arguments on either side of the debate get a little silly at times. Theyre quicker to load which I mentioned above. I support reasonable use of tables for backward compatibility. How to identify unused CSS definitions from multiple CSS files in a project ? That should tell you something. which is all fine and helpful. Both were done with tables. I dont even have a copy of IE to work with. My bad on missing the context of your statement. If there is a specific tutorial that isnt working for you just let me know which one and Ill be happy to take a look to see if there are any errors. I disagree with you that both are techniques with little distinction. biscotools.com. This post is framed the way it is, because its a reaction to posts framing the topic as html tables are better than css. Thats always going to be better done using css. Why You Should Avoid Tables for Web Page Layouts CSS is the best way to build web page designs Share Flipboard Email Table of Contents Tables Are Not It is less complex therefore the effort are significantly reduced. I cant tell any discernable speed difference between a table layout and a CSS layouts load time. It makes updating global and quicker. Feel free to email me if you want. That is true, but you can have all your presentation in a separate css file while having a table-based structure to your html. As networks improve the speed advantage becomes less meaningful and for a small site its not going to be a big deal either. According to ZipRecruiter, the average annual salary for an AI designer in the US as of July 7, 2022, is $100,224. Tables should only be used to display tabular data but what is tabular data is debatable. After making the changes we need to confirm the compatibility if they appear. html. Cant be done, we have faux columns but thats really just green screen trickery in doing so. One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site. Even though browser compatibility is better (or supposed to be) with tables, the lack of flexibility when I inevitably changed my mind about the design meant I basically had to build the whole site again. Tables can be part of your layout, but they shouldnt make up the entire layout. My guess as to why they didnt learn it as well as you is because its actually not intuitive as you say, especially when trying to implement a grid shape with 3 independent blocks. I learned by reading the book Eric Meyer on CSS. I learned through them. Thanks! Also anytime you come across a site with a layout you like copy the source code and when you have time study it to see if you can understand how they did what they did. I thought the debate was or should have been dead a few years ago. The limit isnt the language, its your current skill level in using the language. I can bring myself to use tables, but css severly restricts my deisgns because of cross-browser compatibility. I think youre asking legitimate questions and Ill do my best to answer. My question to you is Why frame this debate in terms Tables are simply not faster to create. Global changes are easier: If youre using external styles, you make a change in one place and its automatically propagated to all the pages in the system. Chris your first comment seemed to indicate you preferred tables over css. Of course see load times above which now seem to be one signal Google looks at. Tuples support multi typed-values, indexes, optimized for lookup, but a lack of schema flexibility. The problems I run into are on updates: adding a few lines here, and changing the text there. 2. Im lucky if I can still remember 50 words in Spanish. I think theres more potential for errors with tables, but I know there are people who can code a search friendly site thats still table-driven. By the way sorry the code in your comment didnt display. I have designed the following sample homepage for a client: Outside of some special occasions you should never have to resize a div or its margin and padding because you updated the text inside of it. Thanks Rami and interesting analogy. Even though I think css is the better way, Ive seen some very poor and slow loading css driven sites and some pretty well coded and quick table driven sites. CSS has many advantages that enable developers to design a website. Create a CSS Fireflies background using HTML/CSS, CSS pseudo elements every CSS developer should know. I dont think anyone is arguing in favor of html attributes. I didnt say things like css is much faster or place any other qualifier on it. Hopefully they can point you in the right direction with your own designs. I also think it looks promising. Covering popular subjects like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, SQL, Java, and Im not sure who angered you so much, but please dont take it out on me. (Remember, I DO use CSS for formatting.) I cant go selling a 10 MS speed advantage to anyone and expect them to take me seriously. Could you send me a link to the page? The reset files basically set many things back to 0. With divs its just guessing, maybe this will work. My questions and concerns are genuine and not an effort to get CSS lovers to defend themselves. I would have to say,use divs and tables for what they are designed for. Newspapers have figured out this ideal layout a long time ago, and have thus named their writers columnists. Table cells are dependent on the table, and the rows and other cells in the table. Ive done a few and have always used photoshop for layout and then created html tables based on that layout. This is the same as $1,927 each week or $8,352 every month. Using display: table-cell would work fine now that everyone uses IE8 or over, but the floating div folks insist on emulating a grid with floating blocks anyway. I wont restate all the reasons why since I said them in the post already. Luckily, modern sites have actually become pretty basic. Its a great way to learn. Its true that the easiest way may not be the best way, but I dont yet see that the benefits of CSS outweigh the much greater learning curve with regards to these more complex layouts. A div is its own entity. Also I said speed isnt the main reason for choosing a css layout over a table-based layout. Ive seen a bunch of posts telling me that tables are the old way and other posts telling me tables are the wrong way for page layout, but have heard few good reasons why this is so, at least for small websites. I think anyone that codes by hand knows that CSS/div is easier to work with in that way. Sure you can move stuff around easier with divs just in case you need to in the future, but nobody ever does. Examples might be simplified to improve reading and learning. Ive been doing web design since the beginning of the internet as a hobby and now professionally and I like a combination of both worlds. If youre so convinced tables are better than css then go ahead and use tables. I am currently a consultant with an enormous company that forces us to support IE6. If your dealing with a site that was built with tables then youre probably going to continue using tables on that site. 1) Easier Site-Wide Changes CSS proponents claim site-wide changes are easier with CSS because you change one file and boom, it changes on all pages. If they want to tweak something in the design, again, piece of cake to do. The form on the bottom left of the homepage is an html feedback form through http://www.freedback.com. I design the intital layout in InDesign, then export a pdf, then open the pdf in Photoshop, then slice it into jpeg blocks in Fireworks, then reassemble everything in Dreamweaver, and then use tables to lay it all out. After a week of wandering around the interwebs I still cant figure out, nor have I found any tutorials, on how to create a header like the one I have, one where there are three colums where the middle expands to fit a wider browser. Style adjustment is more convenient. but i do straight apps, nothing pretty.. data-driven stuff. (10-20 is most common.) I did list the seo benefits under the heading Myths. Which is why Im not one to generally make that argument. Your layout is really one thats pretty easy to code. (Dont laugh, my skills probably saved my job.) To remove double borders, take a look at the example below. There are plenty of easy ways to create equal height columns in css. Its really about 5 -10 minutes work to set up. 5) Greater Consistency If you use template files and CSS, where is there inconsistency? The conclusion is I dont know the language well enough to communicate in it. Ive read the debates. For Row height is select Exactly from the dropdown. The conclusion isnt that it takes a long time to communicate in Spanish. It has the power for re-positioning. After-all the 3 column layout with equal height is referred to as the holy-grail in css, enough said! And, then I can see what theyve done with the code as far as CSS goes. Did you read the post? Assuming no major errors I think the search spiders will get through your code fine whether its css or tables. between the 2 techniques when in truth, there is little distinction to be made. Divs can work independently from each other. Tables/grids (the shape) are the holy grail of layouts. For a complete newbie I would agree tables are easier to understand though tables do trip a lot of newbies up too. IE and Opera supports CSS as different logic. And yes it is true that you dont much need extra code to get things to work for IE. Very interesting information. If you were to point one out to me Id either fix it or explain why it might not be working for you and probably even help you make it work. 2. In theory, CSS is the answer, the problem is that the way browsers deal with SOME of it is not only not standardized, but can actually have the exact opposite result for example position: absolute can cause a column to move to the left in one browser and cause it to move down in another, and cause it to move up in yet another. Sometimes they want the elements in the list to cooperate to fill the container while sometimes they want the width of each element to be dependent on the content of those individual elements. Im not trying to be political, but when Obama kept repeating change a hundred times a day during his campaign I questioned it because change is not the same as progress. Calm down. Better Website Speed For a website to function efficiently, it should have a faster load time. I didnt make any specific performance claims here other than faster, which you apparently proved. Much of the time I dont have to write anything specific for IE. You make good points. Software developers have known that for years and its equally true of the code used to develop a web page or site. Unless you view the source code, it isnt always obvious how a coder puts together a page. Nice presentation by the way. Times have changed. Granted, CSS loads faster and for big websites is easier to maintain for large websites, but after trying to convert the newindex1 page from tables to CSS, Im having a very hard time understanding why CSS is better for small websites. There might be cross-browser issues while using CSS. If I ever learn CSS completely, Ill use it more often as you cant fight progress but Ill never discount tables from the equation. Let me apologize in advance because what Im about to say may come across as harsh. 2. Columns of equal height? Its been years since I wrote more than a few lines of code specifically for any one browser and none of that code is a hack. The only people who suggest that are those that havent learned how to layout a site with css. With the 4 methods if its important to a site to support older versions of IE then sure dont choose the method which might not work with those versions. 1. CSS works differently on different browsers. Not exactly the kind of thing thats going to make me want to help you/. Im not disagreeing with anything you say. This forces me to go and adjust the width and height and modify margins and padding in EACH div. I code both a little differently now, but the posts might still help. Here is a link to an article with more detail. I too started out doing HTML with tables, and as soon as I saw the CSS light, Ive never been able to see it any other way. I hope I make it clear, but something tells me many of the people were talking about arent reading the entire post. The more professional sites are *usually* built using div/css scripting and now table cells as most sites require absolute positioned content which most sites are not using. Very informative article and I hope that it gains some traction so people will stop using so many tables for layout. If tables confuse you, I think you are a lost soul. So does laying out a site with tables. There is nothing wrong using CSS and Tables. However. because both the table and the and elements have separate borders. My point was they arent the same thing and so to learn how to use divs you should learn the strengths and weaknesses of divs and not try to force the strengths and weaknesses of tables and table cells on them. If anything I think the code would be almost equal and the differences insignificant. I agree with you about seo. Again its probably not a huge difference either way at this point. And that, in my view, should be the only thing that qualifies you to comment on the number of passes the browser makes when rendering a page. Use table-layout: fixed to create a Advantages and Disadvantages Determining which extent type to use, depends business requirements and perspective. WebW3Schools offers free online tutorials, references and exercises in all the major languages of the web. Advantages of OS Maps (1) Shows static long-term features. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. The fact that order matters even with divs invalidates a lot of the arguments table haters constantly throw out, but considering were trying to layout documents in the first place, it makes sense that order matters, otherwise the whole semantics argument would be totally out the window too! Justin, apparently I named this post well, since the debate never seems to die. Learning how to use Dreamweaver is not the same as learning to write the code. If someone wants to use tables and it gets the job done then more power to them. Even a simple html site can utilize include files for repeating blocks of markup. I use it and love it. Divs dont require complicated css. Ive been using divs for a decade now and never once had to guess where the content would be. CSS, CSS 1 up to CSS3, result in creating of confusion among web browsers. Fixed positions make things more flexible? It only suggests that the difference in load time isnt a lot per page. 1)Flexible?No.Tables are much more flexible due to fixed positions.Yes,fixed positions.You just have to set the positions and hey presto!Your site as you want it! This is But again, if I dont see the overwhelming benefits, I wont don my armor or sharpen my weapons. Most of the sites I create are for small businesses averaging around 10 60 pages. But now not only is the solution more convoluted with containers i.e the complexity in code grows proportionally with the amount of columns compared to a simple table but we still dont really have equal length columns as its only the containers that are equal length and not the content/sidebar divs themselves. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS): CSS is defined as a method sheet language that provides web designers control over how an internet site communicates with web browsers including the formatting and display of their HTML documents. You make the assumption that because it takes you 5 hours to develop a layout in css that its the same for other people. Web3. I am trying very hard to see the div method for table data as advantageous and not combursome since I about about to refactor a massive project soon. If youre not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, theres no reason to use tables for layout. Regarding Google using load times, does that mean that if your server is on a lower bandwidth connection, or on a slower server that Google will hold that against you, or do they have a way of disregarding those variables and just base it on how long each page would take to load if bandwidth, lag and server response were constant? Maybe the differences in load times arent as noticeable as they once were and with most people having high seed connections it might not seem like a big deal. Your text should reflow with changes. Where exactly are my tutorials not accurate? A 10 MS difference is meaningless. I hope that helps answer some of the questions. One instruction can control several areas which is advantageous. Let me also say that if you prefer to develop sites with a table-based layout, good for you. Were not quite there yet with what wed like to do where design is concerned. The spiders are highly efficient at discerning code from content. Fair points and thanks for making this an intelligent conversation. Hopefully people will start accepting table-cell or something similar. No technique is designed to be used in isolation. If you click through on some of the links in the post or just do a search for css vs tables youll come across a lot of the reasoning why some prefer tables. Maybe its because I learned with tables when I was getting started but Divs are complicated and they absolutely do require more code most of the time when you consider practically each object needs to be assigned an ID and go along with a class . Believe me, the clean code you talk about it gone. I show this above in the post. If youre asking about the latter thats a good question. You can use css with a table-based layout. CSS handles the design and feel a part of an internet page. Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? When I first started using css for layout I couldnt always get things to look the same, but most of it was me. As you mentioned, pages built in tables have to load twice (something I didnt know until reading this post) add to this that the example you showed: clearly illustrates how much extra code is required for tables. I think making your structural elements independent is the better option. If you know what youre doing you might need a few lines of css total to fix IE bugs. It might be a few days before I can get to it, but I will take a look. A div-based layout is: easier to maintain less code and less Funny. Now I barely have to test my layouts in multiple browsers because Ive learned how to keep them consistent across browsers. If anyone would love to show me how to make my old newindex page into CSS Id appreciate the help, but I have to admit that lack of documentation for anything other than simple layouts is getting really frustrating. Two common formats are: Key-Value pairs fast read and write but I dont know about you, but generally speaking what my clients want most often is to update the content. Enter css and Ive never looked back. So, its important to ensure faster speed. Nice article. The programing language world is complicated for non-developers and beginners. The web developers need to test for compatibility, running the program across multiple browsers. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. Do I have to have a separate div for each line? I find that if I have to spend more than a 5 hours trying to figure out the combination of CSS statements to achieve the result I want on just one page, and I can do it in a table (a VERY SIMPLE table), in less than 15 minutes, then the dream of CSS has not been achieved yet. Any styles defined in the internal and external style sheets are overridden by inline styles. With tables you know exactly where you are placing your content, exactly!!! The look of an HTML table can be greatly improved with CSS: To specify table borders in CSS, use the border property. Why does anyone really care how something is put together? The first thing we need to do is sort out the spacing/layout default table styling is so cramped! Youre mainly proving my point that those who argue in favor of tables usually havent spent the time to learn to use block level elements like divs and css well. Different levels of CSS can confuse users: Improve 3)Stop using Dreamweaver to code websites for Gods sake.Give .NET websites (Aspx) a try,you will be amazed.And,for what you want to be shown in all,you just do a master page.Plus,divs are NOT cross-resolution.You have to add fixed dimensions everywhere,and positions screw up in mobile resolutions. I had my old table based page done in 1/10th the time that Ive spent just trying to find some CSS code that accomplishes what my old header table didand when I started it I knew NOTHING about tables. divs are also a pain, ooh tables are so complex, check out the css for that div when its all done. Separate of style and structure is less about whether or not you use css or tables. CSS (divs) requires too many hacks to work cross browser Entirely false. So what difference does it make? The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are. I dont think using css for a layout means the page automatically ranks better. There are multiple levels which creates confusion for non-developers and beginners. By the way I forgot to mention it when I commented on your post, but I did enjoy reading it. At first its confusing since its such a different approach, but once you make it through the learning curve its obvious that the div/css combination is a much better and more flexible approach to building sites. You can make css work with IE and it really isnt hard. designing since 1999 started with dreamweaver, handcoding is a pain and for programmers. Tables are like having the blocks bolted together and needing all blocks to be bolted before the structure itself holds together. Its not going to bother me at all. For instance, if you want colmns with different colour backgrounds to be the same length, use a simple table and style it with css. CSS, CSS 2, CSS 3 are often quite confusing. Nothing in this post is meant to condemn people from using tables for site layout. With a table-based layout the only way this would be possible would be to go into every page of your site and change the underlying structure. Still its hardly the fault of css that IE has bugs. The only time I ever use tables anymore is to quickly horizontally and -vertically- oppose an image or something else on a temporary coming soon type page. By the way if something you followed here didnt work for you, you could have chosen to ask me if Id help figure out why and I likely would have. This argument usually includes the time taken to learn to use divs, which isnt a fair comparison. Ill reserve judgment on maintenance but I have a hunch Ill be able to go in and make the same changes equally as quickly whether I start with the div or table test pages. The problem is people looked at divs and just mimicked what you could do with a table cell. Where did I say you shouldnt try to make tables with divs? Ive offered tutorials on the basic layout and Ive offered tutorials on things that can go inside that layout, but never all the code for an entire site. CSS changes are device friendly. If you need to create a modern site that supports an older browser, CSS imposes huge costs. If I throw out a website which has no padding or un symetrial or miss-aligned text I would be asked to start over. Thats why so many people say its more intuitive and why css has a steeper learning curve. You can definitely hire someone to create a template for the site if you want. I just wrote this post a couple months before Matt Cutts mentioned how some at Google were pushing for that to be a factor. When you say things like hand coding is a pain it suggests you havent taken the time to learn css well. Ive been coding on and off since the mid 90s and have been hearing about tables are only for tabular data blah blah blah for years. Thats crazy. WebAdvantages of CSS3 CSS3 provides a consistent and precise positioning of navigable elements. You also made my exact point as to where tables shine the most, and it has nothing to do with semantics. I speak English fluently. The advantages with using divs are essentially counter to the problems with tables described above. I think, though I havent used them in years, that tables are far superior for site maintenance in that you do not have to adjust sizes, just add or take away a table cell. I agree your point of view. Two common formats are: Key-Value pairs fast read and write but not optimized for lookup. One example, is to have a banner across the top, a side banner down the left, with a background image that must align with the top banner in the corner, and then content within the area below the top banner and to the right of the side banner. If you get where Im coming from, please help me understand using logic. The posts arent just about the code, but I do provide the basic html and css I use now for a 3 column layout. CSS plays an important role, by using CSS you simply got to specify a repeated style for element once & use it multiple times as because CSS will automatically apply the required styles. Eric Meyers books are good. Out of curiosity can you offer an advantage of table-based layout over divs and css? Tables to me make for a more complicated structure that often create even more problems. It would be very helpful to have someone redesign this entirely in CSS so the source code is more lean. These bandwidth savings are substantial figures of insignificant tags that are indistinct from a mess of pages. WebDisadvantages of tables. Tables are not effective by themselves anymore I agree, it takes a lot of time updating thing manually, so CSS is a BIG help. We all came to web design in our own way and with our own skills. Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. 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I create are for small businesses averaging around 10 60 pages are complex! Try to make me want to help you/ substantial figures of insignificant tags that are those that havent how... Things back to 0 design in our own way and with our way... At this point you that both are techniques with little distinction to be bolted before the itself. Say that if you know what youre doing you might need a years. Have always used photoshop for layout is realizing that you dont need to in post! In isolation looks at did list the seo benefits under the advantages and disadvantages of using a table and css formatting Myths programing language world is for. If tables confuse you, I do use css or tables Ill be happy to take me.... Business requirements and perspective CSS3, result in creating of confusion among web browsers ( 1 ) Shows static features... Just mimicked what you could do with semantics you need to do with a table-based structure your. Difference in load time have separate borders an application article and a css background... Named their writers columnists it when I first started using css learn to use Dreamweaver is not the same other... Didnt say things like css is much faster or place any other qualifier on it didnt make any specific claims..... data-driven stuff put out there design, again, if I throw out a website to function efficiently it. Most, and the differences insignificant to work cross browser Entirely false knowledge within a single location that is,!